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Nobody can afford to put 200 hours of work + materials into a $2000 mandolin. But if you're only putting in 100, what do you do differently or cut out?

As I stated, cut out the fluff, the bling, and concentrate on what counts, if you're trying to cut time. Perhaps he shouldn't offer an F style at all, at this point.

I am one who also never really got the hang of binding F-5's reasonably quick enough, at a quality level I would let out the door. If I take my time and re-do them to where I'm happy, I could have, honestly, built 5 guitars. That means that to pay myself fairly, I'd need an F-5 to bring me 15,000 to 20,000 clams. Crazy! So, I stopped building them. An A-5 style, I can build at the same rate as a guitar, with a level of quality I can be proud of, so these are all I do now. At some point in time, I'll re-visit the F styles, and my chops might be up to par by then, but until that time, it's A-5's for me. Keep it simple...... Oh, and A-5's sound and play every bit as good as any F, and are even a lot lighter, and comfortable.


You may want to delete that photo, if possible. It gives away the builder, which isn't fair, nor necessary for this thread.

Kevin, good posts!

deletedharmonist3438979.2777546296

Andrew, I caught the name and won't pass it on. However, it's probably not out of line to note that, on the luthier's website, he advertises his F5 mandolins as having EXCELLENT FIT AND FINISH (in capital letters).

I'm not sure his advertising is consistent with what you heard from the satisfied customer --- i.e., that he goes for tone and doesn't care about looks.

I've found some comments in this thread to be quite perplexing.

First of all, Andrew, why do you regret starting this thread? I think your initial question about acceptable quality is a good one, and certainly appropriate to this Forum. It's something we all should think about.

Have we been too harsh? I think not. The mandolin in question has some of the shoddiest workmanship I've ever seen in anything for which money changed hands. Are F-5s hard to build? Yes!!! So what?! Learn how to do it right. Start with learning how to use sandpaper over 80 grit!

I know someone who makes violin family bows for a living. He also plays mandolin very well. He built an F-5 style for himself. It was his first and only attempt at building an instrument of any kind, and it is so far removed in quality from the above mando that it's almost laughable. Is it perfect? No. The curly maple isn't sanded absolutely smooth, the finish isn't spot-on (though it's still pretty good) and there are some small imperfections in the bindings. It is, however, the perfect example of what one might forgive in lack of visual perfection for quality sound. I heard it, virtually straight off the bench, in a small acoustic group session, and it was one of the punchiest, loudest F-5s I've ever heard. It hadn't even had the time to develop its full voice yet, and it was already a banjo-killer. That's the kind of instrument we should offer the benefit of the doubt, not the one here.

We've got some members who are starting their first F-5s. I'd wager that every one of them will turn out better than the one featured here.

Are we being unfair in offering blunt appraisals of this instrument when we go easy and heap praise on fellow members' attempts? No. Andrew asked for our opinions, and I think they were given honestly. Not many of those posting their instruments here actually ask for honest opinions, and frankly, the quality of the digitally shrunken, pixelated photos available to us here don't give us a good platform from which to judge, even if we're asked. So why not be nice and supportive? If the mandolin featured here looks that bad in low resolution, imagine how it looks "en vivo."

Shutting up, now.

Kevin Gallagher wrote:
" Some of the small things that show that the human hand was allowed to play a part in the construction of a guitar are the things that add charm to them as long as they are not detracting from the overall appearance or
presentation of the instrument. "

Thanks for that.

I have to say it took me a long time to get my appearance chops up, and I still struggle with that aspect of things, so I can sympathise to some extent. Sometimes the hardest thing to learn is to _see_ what you're looking at. OTOH, it's hard to understand how one could _not_ see some of those problems.

One issue I have in general is that the 'standard' in the guitar world is based on mass production specs. To many people every dimension is seen as being as important as every other: 1/8" off in string length as important as having the bridge 1/8" off center on the top, for example. Obviously, you don't want to be off in either way, but one is clearly more serious than the other so long as the strings are over the neck. One friend of mine does a French polish job that looks about as good as any spray finish, but he takes forty hours or more to get there, and his customers pay for that labor.

He got to that point the hard way, and your mandolin guy needs to follow his example. My friend took one of his early guitars to New York, and got savaged over the F&F, so he came back and built a better looking one. They dissed that one, too, so he made more improvements. After a while, they started to buy them, and haven't stopped. It takes a lot of strength to swallow your pride and listen to the critics, but it's the only way to learn sometimes.

As to what's 'reasonable' in general: I certainly can't say, since I'm far from perfect. As I've hinted, I feel that there are some unreasonable expectations out there; that craftspeople are not well served in the long run by being held to production standards in all things. It's hard to rise to the level of art when you can't make certain kinds of changes, and take certain sorts of risks. I wish sometimes that we guitar makers could be in the position that violin makers are in, with the production people trying (and failing) to mimic hand-made standards. Of course, we don't need the sort of copy crazyness they have, but I doubt that would happen any time soon. Their 'golden' period was 300 years ago; ours is now.   

Still, there has to be some middle way, between 'production perfect' and 'home made' that defines 'acceptible'. Probably there will be a cultural component to the definition: I gather that the Japanese would set the bar a lot higher than we Americans do in general. One of my favorite jokes is that apprentices make mistakes and don't know it, journeymen make mistakes they can hide, and masters make mistakes that are part of their style. I'm still a journeyman, so I'll have to defer to the masters on standards.

Andrew,
    Again, I commend you on your kindness and tact. I'm not one to offer
an unfair commentary on anyone else's work since I've always welcomed
the same on mine. You can never go wrong with fair and honest, in my
opinion, whether giving or receiving. I've seen many beautiful
instruments being built by first time builders and experienced builders
who frequent this forum and the quality and atention to detail are a great
testimony to what can be achieved when care is taken. I've complimented
many of these efforts with awe sometimes at the skill shown by their
builders.

    It's when a builder who claims a certain level of experience and skill
that commentary must be offered just as honestly....as much as a service
to him as to his customers. I've received my share of flattering and less
than flattering comments from buyers and other builders over the years
and both have served to increase a drive in me to become a better luthier
with each guitar that I build.
    
    I really think that a mandolin with the binding left off altogether would
have said more for the craftsman than this one with such poor execution
in so many areas. There's a very cool look to a top and back joining their
sides as an assembly of wooden components that's always attracted me
as much as a nicely bound piece built from the same woods.

    The "I build instruments to be played and not looked at..."comment is a
very poor cop out on his part in my opinion and just another thing that
will only fly with players who really don't understand the difference
anyway. It's one that has been tried by my friend who builds those very
ornately inlaid traditional guitars for players who just don't know the
difference and I've made it a point to advise him to drop it on several
occasions. I explained to him as I would to this builder that what we do to
make our instruments look the way they do is a
very integral part of their quality and a set of processes that are necessary
for any builder of stringed intruments to learn and try to perfect as they
grow.

    To lay them aside as unimportant because they don't affect the tone
isn't fair to the customer either. I'll guess as far as to say that the clumpy
globs of finish spattered on that mandolin will have a much more adverse
effect on its tone than no finish at all or a very lightly applied oil finish.
Alot of builders are shopping out their finish work to finish specialists for
various reasons today.
They pay good dollars to have a great finish put on their instruments
because people care about appearance and we can offer instruments that
not only play and sound great, but look great as well without killing
ourselves on time investment.

    It's kind of a slap in the faces of all of us builders who spend as much
time as anyone on tuning our instruments and coaxing them as close to
their tonal potential as we're able and then go the extra mile and hours to
put a great finish on them for our customers, too. I can tell you tht this
builder spends no more time on the tuning of the plates of his mandolins
than anyone else who is putting a very nice finish on them. If there is an
element of building whose achievement and skill necessary to attain it are
illusive, it is the tuning of the components, not the finish process.

   Any high level guitar coming out of the Martin, Taylor, Gibson. Collings
and other large or medium size production houses with a reputation of
quality are the guitars that I was referring to when I compared the binding
or miters to those of a solo or small shop builder's. Their results are
excellent and are intended to please a sect of the buying public made up
of educated and discerning players and collectors who really know and
appreciate the difference and are willing to pay for it. Are they perfect?
No, but they are of a level of quality that sets them apart from others.

   The low end models from those houses who even offer a low end are a
different story and have to be built with some corners cut to address their
price ranges. The time and attention necessary to achieve better results
are just not available due to the obvious low pricing restraints.

    Sorry to come off as the heavy guy in this, but I've had to spend loads
of time and money over the years....along with many other builders who
would agree with me on much of this....to hone my abilities and to
educate myself not only in the craft of building and instrument, but in the
separate craft of finishing it as well as it is built. Is there perfection? By
no menas and I would never claim it, but there's constant and consistent
improvement from one to the next and a level of quality commensurate
with the time invested and experience accumulated.

   I believe Al Carruth and I feel very similarly about the level of charm
that is present in aninstrument that is hand crafted with love and lots of
very close attention to every small detail that gives it its "personality", so
to speak. They may not be perfect or look like every detail was cut and
executed using computer controlled or automated machinery and a
myriad of high tech modern fixtures, but they will always reflect that love
of the craft and determination of their maker to create the best possible
instrument for a particular customer.

     I don't think I've ever experienced a more rewarding moment in a work
situation than when a customer takes posession of one of my guitars and
that smile that comes from nothing else sweeps across their face as they
strike that first chord on it. Wow! what an honor to be able to create
things that enable others to create! They deserve the best we can possibly
give in every case.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars Kevin Gallagher38974.0528009259

BS!!! From a luthier point of view, that is an embarrasing and ridiculous product. Send it back....or burn it.

In my short time in the 'high end' guitar world I've
seen things that boggle the mind. Sometimes that's
in the stunning quality of a build that makes me feel
like a total hack and sometimes, like Kevin, it's in
seeing someone sell a guitar that looks like a 10 yr
old on a diet of Mt. Dew and Sweet-Tarts made it.
I've seen guitars with 4 figure price tags tags that
were made so poorly I honestly question the sanity
of the builder. How can a guitar with obviously kinked
and cracked sides, an open seam (filled with finish
and who knows what) on the top and a neck gap
filled with what looked like black putty have a price
tag of a decent used car (or a Ryan or Gallagher?)
on it? That level of denial has to indicate some sort
of mental defect.
As to that mando, yes, it's 'cheap' for a handmade
mandolin, and certainly it probably took quite a while
to make and to earn a living he surely must charge
what he does....but like Mario suggested, he really
out to be doing something else with him time.
I also question whether a builder that can't even glue
on plastic binding or clean the fuzz off an 'f' hole can
properly fit a brace or dovetail. The structure surely
has to be suspect along with the F&F.Mike Dotson38974.7725462963

Im no master luthier by any means - but speaking even as a player and a consumer - I would have to say that someone should build what they say they will, and come in at the price they quote - even if they misjudge thier ability!
I can imagine that many a luthier on the OLF has made a commitment to build something, for a certain price, that started to get way out of thier range of profitability - but chose rather to "eat it" and build an instrument of quality at a loss - rather than build a POS and grab a bit of profit despite thier error in reasonbly estimating the time and effort and materials properly.   Why?
Because of the pride of workmanship attached to thier name -
I myself have seen amatuer builders, build better instruments than this, and have a hard time believing this particular builder has built 10 mandos - much less 100 or more.
If this were an instrument I myself built - I would hang it on the wall of my shop as a reminder of what I could do better next time - and as someone said already I would be too embarrassed to give it away -much less sell it for any price.
Send it back, and sell this builders work on a commision basis, if you choose to sell his work at all.
Charliewoodcharliewood38975.6752777778